First Amendment / Schools

05/16/2013

(1) Your post – Due May 29

Select TWO questions from the list:

Should students in public schools be forced to say the pledge of allegiance?
Does political speech interfere with the public schools’ mission to educate students?
Should a school prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols?
Should schools be able to dictate a student’s appearance?
Should public schools ban students’ speech that refers to sex or drugs?
Should a school district discipline a student who gives a lewd speech at a high school assembly?
Should a school’s administration determine what is in a student created school publication?

(a) Write the question. (b) Write your beliefs BEFORE the class deliberation. What influenced your beliefs? (c) Write a short summary PARAGRAPH of the Supreme Court’s decision (d) POST Deliberation - Do you agree with the decision? Why or why not? (paragraph) (3 points each / 12 points)

(2) Respond to TWO peers – Due June 1

Response options to peers (up to 10 points; 5 points each):

Use evidence to support a statement. ("Most people in the U.S. believe that . . . . For example, in an opinion poll conducted this year. . . .")
Use a probing question to elicit more information. (" You write that. . . . Can you explain that further? I don’t understand because…")
Summarize the discussion; summarize points of agreements and disagreement between fellow students. ("Based on your post, it seems like you believe that . . . "I believe…” )
Acknowledge the statements of others. ("As _______ wrote, '. . . .', I agree because…. OR I disagree because… (give evidence/ reasons)…")
Make a concession ("You're right, _______, and I'm wrong! Your point about __________ made me realize….”)
A prompt of your choice as long as it acknowledges something another peer wrote and you add additional insights.

(3) Respond to teacher’s questions / comments (5 pts) – Due June 4

Comments

Jiaming

05/27/2013 5:05pm

Should students in public schools be forced to say the pledge of allegiance?

Students in public school should not be forced to say the pledge of allegiance.

The mandatory flag salute infringe upon liberties did not protected by the First and Fourteenth Amendments.

I agree with the decision because forced to say the pledge of allegiance is protected by the constitution and is was forbidden by Biblical commands.

Does political speech interfere with the public schools’ mission to educate students?

Political speech does not interfere with the public schools' mission to educate students.

The Des Moines school district can't prohibit the wearing of armbands in public school as a form of symbolic protest.

I agree with the decision because it was a pure speech and protected by the First Amendment.

Nicolette Sanborn

05/28/2013 8:57am

Jiaming, I agree with you're post. When you said, "Political speech does not interfere with the public schools' mission to educate students." You were right. It's not the public schools mission to do that. Also, it's protected by the first admendment as well.

Wilbert Castillo

05/28/2013 6:28pm

Hello Jiaming,
You say that you agree with the court decision that the mandatory flag salute is unconstitutional. You say that in being forced to say the pledge of allegiance a citizen is protected by the constitution and such act is forbidden by biblical command. Please explain this subject further. I would appreciate if you could provide details in constitutional protection and how it is forbidden in biblical command.

Ms. Sharer

06/02/2013 12:55pm

How does the flag salute infringe on the 1st and 14th amendments? Be specific. How is it related to religious liberty?

What is "pure" speech? What are the stipulations of the Tinker decision on political speech? Do you agree with the stipulations? Why or why not?

ciani upchurch

06/02/2013 3:40pm

As Jiaming wrote, "I agree with the decision because forced to say the pledge of allegiance is protected by the constitution and is was forbidden by Biblical commands." I agree with him because you can not go against some people beliefs and take away their amendments rights.

Abdul

06/02/2013 4:04pm

I like what you said Jia because you stated that mandatory pledge infringes on our freedom as citizens to do as we please with regards to our faith and other touchy subjects. This goes back to what I was saying about having a nation built upon freedom which is what the pledge is all about and then contradicting it with mandatory pledge.

bjeanc!

06/03/2013 7:45pm

Jaiming you said that you agree with the courts decision of making the flag salute mandatory, but can you explain "the pledge of allegiance is protected by the constitution and is was forbidden by Biblical commands" I didn't really understand this part well enough.

Nicolette Sanborn

05/28/2013 8:54am

1) Should a school prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols?
- I believe schools should prohibit offensive slogans/ symbols.
-If a student wears like the KKK symbol, people very offended by it. Also, the student wearing something that offensive could get seriously injured.
- I agree with the decision because it could be viewed as the school promoting hate crime.

2) Should a school district discipline a student who gives a lewd speech at a high school assembly?
- I do believe that school should discipline a student for using a lewd speech.
- If a student gets on stage for example, and says, " I should be president because I'm fuc**ng awesome and this school is sh*t" then that student should get in trouble because it's rude to talk like that and also you're slandering the school.
- I agree with the decision because even though it's "free speech", you're violating school rules.

Wilbert Castillo

05/28/2013 6:31pm

Hey Nikki,
I must admit that I agree with your statement that schools should prohibit the wearing of offensive symbols and slogans. I agree because you provided the proof of the case being one of safety and that the "symbol" may cause harm to the wearer.

I would just like to ask how would the school be promoting hate crime if it did not regulate the wearing of such symbols like that of the KKK?

Chan Lau

05/29/2013 6:48pm

As Nicolette wrote " If a student wears like the KKK symbol, people very offended by it. Also, the student wearing something that offensive could get seriously injured", I agree because a lot of people are just looking for a excuse to fight back.

yoko ng

05/29/2013 9:10pm

I agree with your post, when you said "If a student gets on stage for example, and says, " I should be president because I'm fuc**ng awesome and this school is sh*t" then that student should get in trouble because it's rude to talk like that..." ,because students in school are taught to have a good moral and whoever break the rules, schools should discipline the students.

Go Vung

05/30/2013 5:16pm

I agree with you, Nikki that there should be prohibition of wearing a slogan symbols and also discipline who have lewd speech. Both were fall under the rule of "the expressing opinion but not interfering withe the requirement of appropriate discipline the operation of the school' and without colliding with the rights of others". These two had fallen under this that they were not appropriate fro the school' standard.

Jiaming

06/01/2013 5:28pm

You are absolutely right. Just like you can't yell fire in the theater, you can not wearing any offensive slogans or symbols because you may directly or indirectly hurting people emotionally, mentally or even physically.

Liangjian Gao

06/01/2013 8:56pm

As Nicolette wrote, 'school should prohibit offensive slogans', I agree because like she said the KKK symbol, it is really not appropriate at school and it might disturb the safety and learning environment at school.

Channary Art

06/02/2013 11:31am

As Nicolette wrote, "If a student wears like the KKK symbol, people very offended by it. Also, the student wearing something that offensive could get seriously injured", I agree because there are a lot of people that would take it offensive since of what happened in the past such as slavery.

Ms. Sharer

06/02/2013 12:59pm

When does what a student does (e.g. wear a t-shirt with offensive language) become the responsibility of the school? (You wrote it could be interpreted as the school supporting hate speech.) Is this "in loco parentis?"

What if a student uses lewd speech but does not say anything about the school? Is your problem with the student's speech that s/he curses or references the school? Does it matter?

Nicolette Sanborn

06/03/2013 8:00am

It becomes the responsibility of the school when the student walks into the building. The student wearing an offensive shirt can get seriously injured if it isn't stopped before other students see. It's school's job to protect each student.
I don't think it's in loco parentis.

It's still against the rules. If you said "This principle is a**" you're still violating it. It's not my problem, it's there's. I personally don't care if someone curses in a speech but the teachers, and staff would have a problem because it could be a domino affect. For example, if I use lewd in my speech and I don't get in trouble, other student could think it's ok to do it too. Yes it matters.

Justin Sanchez

06/04/2013 4:21pm

Nikki... I disagree with what you said about " I do believe that school should discipline a student for using a lewd speech.
- If a student gets on stage for example, and says, " I should be president because I'm fuc**ng awesome and this school is sh*t" then that student should get in trouble because it's rude to talk like that and also you're slandering the school." How do you know he isn't f*ing awesome and the school really is sh*t? Look I think people are way too sensitive these days, seriously. I could say butt scratcher and people would get all-wounded about it. As long as it is promoting sex drugs and alcohol then who cares.

Wilbert Castillo

05/28/2013 6:21pm

1) Should a School prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols?

Before the deliberation I believed that the school should prohibit the wearing of symbols and slogans that may be deemed offensive by other students or the staff. I say this because I believe offensive symbols and slogans can be taken too far and cause a breach in the safety of the wearer and those around him. As an administrative authority it is the job of the school to keep its students and staff safe even if it means taking away certain rights if it may cause them harm.

In Melton v. Young the Court decided that wearing offensive symbols can be prohibited by school administrators. Because of a historic racial tension in the school the principal had every right to punish the boy wearing the Confederate battle flag on his Jacket. This was given because of the ongoing racial tension in addition to historic disorders that was caused by the disputed symbol.

After the deliberation I completely agree with the decision of the Supreme Court because it is the duty of a school to keep its students safe from harm. If there is a history of tension that may be reignited because of a certain symbol or slogan the school definitely should have the right to ban the use of it.

2) Should public schools ban students' speech that refers to sex or drugs?

Before the deliberation I believed that the school should be able to ban the use of language with reference to sex or drugs if they are disruptive to the educational mission of the school. This was my view because of the fact that reference to sex or drugs in a school setting may be used to educate students of the dangers of such things. When used in a disruptive manner such speech should be regulated extensively.

In the case of Morse v. Frederick the Court ruled that under the First Amendment of the Constitution the school had every right to prohibit students from displaying messages promoting the use of illegal drugs at school supervised events. Congress declared that educating students of the dangers of illegal drug use is a part of the job of the school. This is not protected under the Tinker v. DesMoines precedent because the concern to prevent student drug use is beyond an abstract desire to avoid controversy.

After the deliberation I agree with the decision of the court that the school had a right to ban such speech. This again coincides with my views of the school's mission to provide a safe environment for its students. This also affects the educational mission of the school and all speech that is disruptive to this mission should be regulated strictly and even banned.

yoko ng

05/29/2013 9:30pm

Wilbert, i agree on your post, when you say"his again coincides with my views of the school's mission to provide a safe environment for its students. This also affects the educational mission of the school and all speech that is disruptive to this mission should be regulated strictly and even banned." ,because most all students who are still you and growing are easily to get trap by bad influence and creating unsafe environment for other students,therefore students should ban students' speech that refers to sex or drugs

Ms. Sharer

06/02/2013 1:18pm

What type of symbols should a school prohibit? Who determines what is "over the top?"

What is "beyond an abstract desire to avoid controversy?"

How do you know when speech is disruptive of a school's mission? What is a school's mission includes controversial issues / social justice / etc?

Wilbert

06/06/2013 6:10am

Well I believe that schools should prohibit racially offensive symbols and symbols that may cause trouble in the school that will vary by school and region in the country.

Reasons beyond an abstract desire to avoid controversy are those actions taken to avoid violent disruption and not just to say that a school did not take action on a menial issue.

A symbol can be considered disruptive when it causes obvious disruption of school functions and cause tension among students.

Justin Sanchez

06/04/2013 4:27pm

Wilbert you basically said the same thing twice. Your before and after deliberation say the same thing. But I agree with what you said about "I believe offensive symbols and slogans can be taken too far and cause a breach in the safety of the wearer and those around him." Offensive slogans like the KKK symbol would offend a lot of people and whoever wearing it would definitely get his as whooped, and shot, and stabbed, and killed.

bjeanc!

05/28/2013 8:06pm

1. Should students in public schools be forced to say the pledge of allegiance?
Before Deliberation- No I do not think that public schools should be forced to say the pledge of allegiance because not only did I not say the pledge but also because it infringes upon liberties were not protected by the First and Fourteenth Amendments.
Lillian and William Gobitis were expelled from the public schools of Minersville, Pennsylvania, for refusing to salute the flag as part of a daily school exercise. The Gobitis children were Jehovah's Witnesses; they believed that such a gesture of respect for the flag was forbidden by Biblical commands. The Court ruled no, that mandatory flag salute did not infringe upon liberties protected by the First and Fourteenth Amendments. In an 8-to-1 decision, the Court declined to make itself "the school board for the country" and upheld the mandatory flag salute. The Court held that the state's interest in "national cohesion" was "inferior to none in the hierarchy of legal values" and that national unity was "the basis of national security."
Post Deliberation- I do not agree with the Court's decision because everyone has a right to their own religion, to discriminate that because it restricts people on their First Amendment rights, Freedom of Religion. It is something seemingly petty and is tedious in its own way.
2. Should a school’s administration determine what is in a student created school publication?
Before Deliberation- No I do not think that a school’s administration should determine what is in a student’s publications because it restricts their rights to the First Amendment, Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Press.
Robert E. Reynolds, the school principal, received the pages proofs for the May 13 issue. Reynolds found two of the articles in the issue to be inappropriate, and ordered that the pages on which the articles appeared be withheld from publication. Cathy Kuhlmeier and two other former Hazelwood East students brought the case to court. The courts decided no, that the principal's deletion of the articles violate the students' rights under the First Amendment. In an 5-to-3 decision, the Court held that the First Amendment did not require schools to affirmatively promote particular types of student speech. The Court held that schools must be able to set high standards for student speech disseminated under their auspices, and that schools retained the right to refuse to sponsor speech that was "inconsistent with the shared values of a civilized social order.'"
Post Deliberation- I do not agree with the Court's decision because it restricts their rights to the First Amendment, Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Press.

Nianxin Guan

06/01/2013 10:22pm

As bjeanc wrote that the enforcement of schools infringes upon liberties were not protected by the First and Fourteenth Amendments, I agree. Since there is the 1st Amendment to protect our right to speech, we get to choose what do we want to say. Country like the United States containing lots of different religions, ethnicity, and immigrants, it's hard to make people obey to a new country, so what is the point that force people to say the pledge of allegiance if no body really want to take a part in this country?

Ms. Sharer

06/02/2013 1:30pm

1 - What about West Va. v. Barnette? How does this change the Gobitis decision? Should nationalism be part of public schools? Why or why not?
2. The school newspaper is funded by a school. What about publications not funded by the school? Should any form of student speech be restricted in school? Why or why not?

bjeanc!

06/03/2013 7:41pm

1. The Respondent, Barnette, is a Jehovah’s Witness who refused to pledge allegiance the United States flag while in public school. According to the Petitioner, the West Virginia State Board of Education’s rule, the Respondent was expelled from school and charged with juvenile delinquency. The right to not speak is as equally protected under the First Amendment of the Constitution as the right to free speech. The court ruled that, as long as the actions do not present a clear and present danger of the kind the state is allowed to prevent, then the Constitution encourages diversity of thought and belief. No nationalism shouldn’t be a part of the public schools because many schools, like ours, have a lot of people coming from different countries and nations, we shouldn’t subject others, including ourselves, into believing in a nation that they don’t want to be a part of.
2. Publications not funded by the school should raise money to be able to tell other students what is going on. Student speech could have some restrictions in cases of profanity, lewd sayings,etc., because in cases where a student gives a speech in an assembly and uses inappropriate language, the student gets in trouble. The teachers should determine with child is able to be able to go on stage and not make/ use inappropriate language.

Channary Art

05/28/2013 8:32pm

1. Should a school prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols?
Before: Yes, schools should prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans and symbols because it can cause conflict between races, religions, and etc. by causing many fights.

The Melton v. Young case expanded the right of Tinker v. Des Moines stating that the principal had every right to anticipate a tense of racial situation in which causing disorder is unconstitutional. Base on Tinker v. Des Moines, disrupting classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of other is not protected by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech and interfering with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school and without colliding with rights of others.

After: I still think that schools should prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans and symbols disrupting and interfering with schools. So, I agree the decision of the Supreme Court did the right think of banning the right to wear offensive slogans.

2. Should schools be able to dictate a student’s appearance?
Before: No, because students appearance does not affect the schools in any way. There shouldn’t be a restriction of how some appear to look.

Karr v. Schmidt expanded Karr and Tinker v. Des Moines stating that wearing long hair is a symbolic speech under the first amendment.

After: I still think that schools shouldn’t be able to dictate a student’s appearance because they have their first amendment rights. It is not disrupting anyone or schools.

Chan Lau

05/29/2013 6:52pm

I agree with you Channary. The school does have the right to prohibit offensive slogans and symbols that would disrupt the learning environment.

Nianxin Guan

06/01/2013 11:14pm

I agree with your opinion that there should not be a restriction of how some appear to look, but I do not understand that how the 1st Amendment has directly related to this case.

ciani upchurch

06/02/2013 3:44pm

I agree with you Channary schools does have the right to prohibit offensive slogans because someone might get hurt and it will disrupt others from learning

Ms. Sharer

06/02/2013 4:41pm

When might a student's appearance disrupt the school? How? What if appearance is cultural? What if it is a political statement? Who decides?

Who decides if a slogan or symbol is offensive? Do students have any recourse? (e.g. Should students be able to challenge the decision?)

Channary Art

06/03/2013 8:09am

A student's appearance might disrupt the school by causing distraction of other students and teachers from teaching, doing work, and learning. It usually disrupt the school if appearance affect the school's violation even if it is a political statement. The school district and board of education decides base on their rules of school violation.

A person that goes through a period of time that really effect them decides if a slogan or symbol is offensive. Students can recourse the situation by taking the situation to the court.

yoko ng

05/28/2013 10:20pm

1. Should a school prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols ?

I think that school should not prohibiting the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols as long as it is not offensively directly to any specific people or bothering other people attention and not using it on purpose to offense people.
Decision of Melton v. Young :
By a 2-1 vote, a panel of the Sixth Circuit held that the school could reasonably forecast that the wearing of Confederate flag clothing would cause a substantial disruption at the school. So school officials could suspend a student for wearing Confederate flag clothing to school when racial tensions existed .
"The lower court ruled that the school dress code policy prohibiting "provocative symbols" was unconstitutional. If that policy is unconstitutional, "it cannot be validly applied" to the student in this case." (Judge William E. Miller), but in this case i agree on the decision because the student use and wore Confederate flag clothing to school to offense a specific people purposely .

2. Should schools be able to dictate a student's appearance ?

No, Schools should not dictate a student's appearance. I think that student's appearances are really a personal matter ,especially hair, it is really purely about personal matter. Students should have freedom when it comes to their appearances and personal matter IF people do not find it offensively.

Karr v. Schmidt decision :
A public school student has a First Amendment right to wear long hair to school. By a narrow 8-7 margin, the Fifth Circuit held that a student does not have a constitutional right to wear his hairstyle however he sees fit.

I am not agree with the decision . I have experienced this rules back when i used to go to school in Indonesia ,most of schools did not allow students to have inappropriate hair and if the teacher see you with long hair ,they will get a scissor right away and cut it messy so then students have no choice to cut it short. So i feel like students should have more freedom about their appearance or hair style as long as it don't bother student's school work and study

Go Vung

05/30/2013 5:10pm

As you;YoKo wrote wearing a slogan that can be offensive to others should be prohibited. I agree because if wearing something that can offensive to others "purposely" should not be allowed in the school, especially where we came to learn, but not to offend others.

Ms. Sharer

06/03/2013 6:01am

How do we know a student intended to offend others?

Liangjian Gao

06/01/2013 9:02pm

Based on your post, it seems like you believe that students should have the right to decide their appearance, "I believe that schools should be able to dictate a student's appearance because some students will not take care their appearance and decorate some unsuitable stuffs, which will disturb the learning environment and school features.

Ms. Sharer

06/02/2013 5:51pm

How does a principal decide if a student's appearance will "bother their school work and study?"

Who decides which symbols are offensive? Some symbols are offensive to one group but not another. In one culture, a gesture or symbol may be offensive but not in another culture.

yoko ng

06/03/2013 8:06am

A principal can decide if a student's appearance will "bother their school work and study" from his own perspective and other people opinion.

People or anybody can decide which symbols are offensive, a group of people or a person who feel bother by the symbols or slogans can report to the people or person who have the authority to enforce the law

Abdul

06/03/2013 8:00am

Yoko I don't agree with you at all, your ignorant you have no class you don't respect the way the system works, I mean how can you say that we know what a student means with their offensive clothing or symbols are you cognitive of society at all yoko ?? Huh? ANswer me !

Ms. Sharer

06/06/2013 2:00am

Abdul - This is very disrespectful. You did not respond per the directions. You are showing no respect for "how the system works."

Abdul :(

06/06/2013 11:31am

Sorry Yoko for being rude to you, I should have composed myself more and not make you out to be something your not. Your post was insightful and it made me think about how we really should be more careful about what we say and how we determine what is right and whats wrong with regard to students offensive language and clothing.

Chan Lau

05/29/2013 6:43pm

1. (a) Should students in public schools be forced to say the pledge of allegiance?
(b) I believe that the pledge is not a mandatory thing. My belief is influenced from hearing and seeing things about rights and stuff.
(c) MINERSVILLE SCHOOL DISTRICT v. GOBITIS
Gobitis decided not to the pledge of allegiance. Minersville school district did not find that funny and expelled them for refusal of pledge. Gobitis argued that it is against there religion to pledge to the flag. In the Supreme Court, the decision was 8 to 1 in ruling for the school.
(d) I do not agree with this decision as many people of that time period when the decision was given out. But overtime, the decision was overturned. I do not agree because by having the court rule that it is mandatory, it is a big blow to our liberties.

2 (a) Should a school prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols?
(b) I think a school does have the right to prohibit offensive slogans or symbols that would disrupt school activity and the learning environment.
(c) Melton v. Young, 465 F.2d 1332 (6th Cir. 1972)
So basically a high school student was suspended for wearing a confederate flag on his clothing. The school argued that its going to be a big disruption. The high school student appealed and lost.
(d) I agree with the decision because it is the school duty to keep the teaching environment safe and not hostile. If the court had decided to rule in favor of the of the high school student, then all hell would break loose and there would be riots in the school.

Ms. Sharer

06/02/2013 6:03pm

Why is a "forced pledge" a strike at liberties? What are "rights and stuff?"

Who decides what symbols will lead to "disruption?" Is safety or rights more important in school? outside of school?

Liangjian Gao

05/29/2013 8:06pm

1. A. Should a school prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols?

b. Before the class deliberation, I believe that the school should have the right to prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols. My personal opinion that school is a learning institution where should provide educational and reasonable environment.
C. Melton V. Young: By majority opinion, although we are facing the exercise of the fundamental constitutional right to freedom of speech, the school needs to maintain decorum in our public schools so that the learning process may be carried out in an orderly manner. The U.S Court of appeals, 6th Circuit, upheld the boy’s suspension.
D. I agree with the decision because I believe that the inappropriate slogans or symbols will disturb other student’s learning environment and they should be prohibited even though the first Amendment protects them. We must add some restrictions on some area like school.

2. Should schools be able to dictate a student’s appearance?
b. Before the class deliberation, I believe that the school should be able to dictate a student’s appearance. As a student, one should act like a learner instead of dressing like to have a party at school. My belief could be influenced by my original school disciplines.

C. They are discussing that the wearing of long hair is individual right and it was protect by the First Amendment. It is just a personal taste. According to these reasons, we think it is inappropriate that the protection of the First Amendment be extended to the wearing of long hair. Thus, in Karr V. Schmidt, the 5th Circuit of the U. S. Court of Appeals upheld the school’s decision to suspend Karr.

d. I agreed with the court decision. In my mind, I always think that the school has the right to regulate or adjust students’ appearance. Although the First Amendment protect these rule, when they wrote Bill of Rights, there were no schools, so that we must revisit Bill of Rights and revise them.

Ms. Sharer

06/02/2013 7:02pm

Did you "original school" (in China) have strict rules about appearance? If yes, did if affect the school's environment / learning?

Who decides which symbols are offensive? Might the wearing of symbols lead to more learning? (e.g. discussion about the symbols)

Liangjian Gao

06/04/2013 6:21pm

Hi Ms. Sharer，

My school has strict rules about appearance. Actually I believe every single school at China has strict rule about appearance. I don’t know if it affects the school’s environment or not because there is no data to support it. However, it is important rule at school. A student should act like a student.

Whether symbols are offensive depends on different people. It should be fine if the symbol does not obviously offend to someone. The wearing of symbols will lead to more learning and more discussion, but it will also cause unnecessary troubles sometimes.

Anh Phan

06/02/2013 8:21pm

I agree with you what you said "school is a learning institution where should provide educational and reasonable environment" that is exactly what I think about school. Since wearing offensive slogan is violate the school teaching mission, it should be prohibited.

bjeanc!

06/03/2013 7:57pm

Most people in the US, especially people in high school, wouldn't agree with your decision on regulation of who controls our appearance, because many people, including myself and other class mates, like to express their individuality, whether it be through clothes, hair,etc.

Loan Le

06/03/2013 9:15pm

I do not agree with you Liangjian. I'd been through 12 years in high school in Vietnam and I was so sick how school administrators restricted students' appearance harshly. They thought virtuous girls were who never wore short skirts. They must cover knees. I even could not leave long bang because they thought I could be able to cheat when I did test!!! Some people who boomed school have normal appearance. Dont judge a book by its cover. The appearance does not affect everyone in school. Therefore,students should be left alone with their appearance.

Anh Phan

05/29/2013 9:48pm

1.Should students in public school be force to say the pledge of allegiance?
Before the class deliberation, I think there is nothing wrong saying the pledge in school, because that is what I used to do when I live in Vietnam. The pledge was a part of the teaching in Vietnamese’s school, the teaching of loving your country and be loyal to it. So I don’t see anything “wrong” with saying the pledge in school.
The court case of Minerville School District v. Gobitis (1940) ruled that student don’t need to say the pledge of allegiance. Respect to the flag was forbidden by Biblical commands and according to the 1st amendment, freedom of speech and freedom of religious, they don’t need to say what they don’t want and it is also belong to their own religious believe.
I agreed with the decision because people have different believe, so force them to say what they don’t believe in or maybe against theirs believe is wrong. It’s protect by “freedom of religious”
2. Should the school prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbol?
Before the class deliberation, I think yes the school should prohibit that, because school is the place showing human being what is right and what is wrong, hurting other people feeling is wrong so that should not happen in school. The slogans or symbol can be consider as a bullying because it might place on some specific people, it’s the ways that they try to express their feeling on specific issue or people state that they “I hate you”.
The court case of Melton v.Young states the right of the principal to anticipate a tense racial. It is the expanding of the case of Tinker v. Des Moines, since it disrupts class work, invasion the rights of others so it is not protected by the 1st amendment.
Yes, I agreed with the decision of the court case, I think there is no reason school can allow activity that being offensive to other people in school. Wearing offensive slogans or symbol is like saying “I hate you” or event like “I want you to get out of here” it is a type of harassment or bullying, it violate school rules so they should not be allow.

Ms. Sharer

06/03/2013 2:38am

Did Melton v. Young expand Tinker v. Des Moines? Melton v. Young limited speech. Do you think wearing a potentially offensive symbol or slogan is political speech? (Tinker was political speech.) What other types of speech do you consider bullying?

Anh Phan

06/03/2013 8:16am

Yes, Melton v. Young expand Tinker v. Des Moines. I don't think wearing a potentially offensive symbol or slogan is political speech, like in this case it is about the racial tension or like KKK, these are not political speech it hurting people feeling and threaten them. Other types of speech that consider bullying are oral or banners.

Loan Le

05/29/2013 10:00pm

1) Should a school prohibit the wearing of offensive slogan or symbols?

- Before the deliberation, I believed a school should prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols because it may cause conflict or misunderstanding, especially race.

-In Melton v.Young, the court decided a schools can prohibit the wearing of offensive slogan or symbols to maintain decorum in the public schools. The Principal had every right to anticipate that a tense, racial situation continues to exist at the school and that repetition of the previous year's disorders might reoccur if student use of the Confederate symbol was permitted to resume.

- After the deliberraion, I agree with the decision because even though students have First Amendment to protect our speech, school also must restrict what students can say, what they are better not mention about. School administrators need to prevent conflict may occur by prohibiting the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols.

2) Should schools be able to dictate a student’s appearance?

- Before the deliberation, I believed students' appearance does not affect people in school. Therefore, schools should not be able to dictate a student's appearance.

- Chesley Karr was not allowed to enroll in his junior year of high school because of his long hair and refused to cut it. He went to federal court and the U.S. Court of Appeals upheld the school's decision to suspend Karr.

- I did not agree with the decision. Under the First and Fourteenth Amendments, if a student wishes to show his disestablishmentarianism by wearing long hair or has the whim to wear long hair, anitidisestablishmentasians on public school boards have no constitutional authority to prevent it.

Ms. Sharer

06/03/2013 2:48am

Some symbols / slogans are obviously offensive. Not everyone agrees when a slogan / symbol is racist, sexist or insulting to other groups. Who decides? Is the school's main responsibility safety? What if someone's appearance is considered offensive? Is there anything about a student's appearance that the school should restrict?

Nianxin Guan

05/30/2013 4:10am

Should a school prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols?
Before the deliberation, I say yes to response to his question. The word "offensive" is hard to define; I mean, people have a different measurement about the word. In case not to cause some unnecessary trouble by it, the school should prohibit it first.
In the "Melton vs, Young" case, Brainerd High School suspended a white student for wearing a jacket with the confederate battle flag emblem on his sleeve. The U.S. Court of Appeals, 6th Circuit, upheld the school decision.
Although I have said that the school should prohibit the offensive slogans and symbols shirt, I think that suspension for this kid is a little bit too much. Indeed, the white student had done the wrong thing, but according to the First Amendment, people have their right to express their opinion without interrupting the regular function of the public area. On the other hand, consider the fact that no one will just dump a nice jacket because there is a confederate battle flag emblem on it; if it does cause problem, why did the manufacturer make this kind of jacket for sale?

Should schools be able to dictate a student’s appearance?
Before the deliberation, I don't think that is a problem. students' appearance indicate students' fashion style, and that is a personal decision.
"Karr vs. Schmidt (U.S. Court of Appeals, 5th Circuit, 1972)" stated that a sixteen-year-old boy at Coronado High School in El Paso, Texas, was not allowed to enroll in his junior year of high school because he had grown his long hair and refuse to cut it. The 5th Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals upheld to suspend Karr.
I disagree with the court decision. As I said before, students' appearance suggests the personal style of students. That does not interrupt the function of the school, and it is not an offensive meaning; why still suspended the student just to express himself?

Anh Phan

06/02/2013 8:08pm

I don't agree with you, because I think the kid in Melton v. Young deserve the punishment since he purposely wearing it. He might make the jacket by himself and have an intension on racial which is not protected by the 1st Amendment.

Ms. Sharer

06/03/2013 3:02am

Does the 1st Amendment restrict any speech?

Loan Le

06/03/2013 8:16pm

I agree with what you said that we have First Amendment which gives us rights to express our opinion. Therefore, many companies can manufacture those kind of jackets. However, I think schools still should prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols to prevent conflict may occur between races or religions. Students can be suspended if they break the rule.

Ms. Sharer

06/03/2013 2:53am

In the U.S., almost anything can be manufactured. How would speech be affected if companies were told they can not print t-shirts with potentially offensive slogans or symbols? Who decides what is offensive?

What could the school have done to the student who wore the flag symbol other than suspend him? What might have led to more positive speech at the school?

Is any type of student appearance potentially disruptive?

Nianxin Guan

06/04/2013 7:27am

Basically, people don't have all rights for speech. I mean, people cannot say stuffs that is offensive or is considering a threat to the government; since there are limits on what people can say, it's already not the FREEDOM OF SPEECH. The First Amendment is actually just a bunch of words on a paper which is called the Constitution; which means people make decisions by their own. All the decisions are made by the head of the occupations; they get to decision the meaning of the word "offensive". For example, people feel right to express themselves, therefore they regard any thing that is also regarding their opinion, even though other people may feel threatened or offended, as well as many manufactories.

In the case "Melton vs. Young", the student accomplished his right----free to express; however, he was suspended. This move is too extreme. Indeed, school had announced that could not wear any shirt or jacket with confederal battle flag symbols, but the student express himself just like the First Amendment said so. Therefore, I think that the school should just warn him or give him a detention.

Guys with long hair are easy to get in trouble. Otherwise, students with lots of piercing or wear expose.

Abdul (Real Pres.) cough cough

05/30/2013 6:36am

1) Should a school prohibit the wearing of "offensive" slogan or symbols?

I believed a school should prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols before the deliberation because it may cause a fight or disrupt the lesson because people get butthurt sometimes.

In Supreme Court Case Melton v.Young, the court decided a school is allowed to prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols to maintain order in the public schools. The Principal had every right to ban the use of the confederate symbol because they loss the war and they don't deserve any accolades or recognition of ever existing.

After the deliberation, I agree with the courts decision because even though students have First Amendment rights to protect our speech, schools also must restrict what students can say and take away that right because they are the government. School administrators needs to prevent conflict that might occur by prohibiting the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols.

2. Should students in public schools be forced to say the pledge of allegiance?

I believe that the pledge of allegiance is not a mandatory pledge. My belief is influenced from hearing and seeing things about rights and stuff.
Minersville School District v. Gobitis: Gobitis decided not to say the pledge of allegiance. Minersville school district did not like that and expelled him for refusal of pledging to this corrupt country. Gobitis argued that it is against his religion to pledge to the flag. In the Supreme Court, the decision was 8 to 1 in ruling for the school.

I do not agree with this decision like many people of that time period when the decision was given out. But overtime, the decision was overturned. I do not agree because by having the court rule that it is mandatory, it takes away what's really special about the pledge our right to have freedom.

Ms. Sharer

06/03/2013 3:00am

Would you only restrict a symbol if the symbol represented a military loss? What other symbols / slogans would you restrict? Who decides what is "over the top" offensive in a school? Is safety more important than speech in schools? Is there ever an exception?

Is there any nationalistic activity a school should require? Are there other activities that demonstrate a value (e.g. freedom of speech) by not participating?

Abdul

06/04/2013 7:35pm

I would would restrict any symbol that causes offense to the American way of life, i.e freedom and pursuit of happiness. The parents and the principal decide what is over the top and the school district, you should know that Ms. Sharer your a member of the teaching staff! And there is never an exception because student success is at the top of our priority and protecting their lives is without a doubt essential to that success.

The only other nationalistic activity school should require is donation of money to the armed forces and mandatory sign up for selective service for every male. Thats all I can think of Ms. Sharer. Bye :)

Go Vung

05/30/2013 5:04pm

1) Should students in public schools be forced to say the pledge of allegiance?
No, there should be no forcing in the school about the pledge of allegiance or any other form of praying.
The Supreme Court ruled that there should not be mandatory of saying pledge of allegiance. The Supreme Court had broaden the student right in the case of Minersville School District v, Gobitis as in respecting their belief.
I agree with the decision that there should not be any mandatory of saying pledge of allegiance to the flag of United States.

2) Should a school prohibit the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols?
Yes, there should be a consequences or rules for the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols.
The Supreme Court rule that the students have the right to wear any slogans or symbols as long as it was not disturbance or fall under the appropriate discipline. Like in the Melton v. Yong, even though it is the freedom of speech but if it might case a racial tension, the district have the right to prohibit those wearing which is reversed from the Tinker case.
I agree with the decision that sometimes the freedom of speech can lead the tension on race and also can violate others' rights. In such cases, there should be a prohibition.

Jiaming

06/01/2013 5:35pm

You are right Go.
The Pledge violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution because the Pledge contains the phrase "under God."

Channary Art

06/02/2013 11:40am

As Go wrote, "there should be a consequences or rules for the wearing of offensive slogans or symbols. freedom of speech can lead the tension on race and also can violate others' rights", I agree because school set rules so there would be no racial tension. The frist amendment gives the freedom of speech but it seems like the freedom of speech is affecting racial tension to occur.

Ms. Sharer

06/03/2013 5:59am

Is the Pledge of Allegiance like a prayer? Why or why not? What about nationalistic music? Should it be mandatory or not?

When does a slogan or symbol violate others' rights? Who decides? How? (You may add examples from Burma.)

Go Vung

06/03/2013 5:04pm

The Pledge of Allegiance is not like a prayer, because it's a more like a swearing under God, and the flag of U.S to be faithful to the country. I think nationalistic music should be mandatory because many people in the U.S don't even know their national anthem which will remind them of the country's history.
A slogan or symbol violates others' rights when it concerns with the race, religious, gender and violence. Well, in Burma, there are not even a symbol about politics to be worn. The military or government decided and they are really strict about the politics. And most of the people in Burma don't even know their human rights because there can't be any discussion or conversation about the politics, or rights. Even in the class, the teachers can't even talk about their politics views which will get them expelled or arrested.

Justin sanchez

05/30/2013 6:49pm

1.A. Should students be forced to say the pledge of allegiance?
B. Hell no! The hell is the point? Talkin to an inanimate object, whoever made that pledge up should b drowned, given CPR, and killed again!
C. They ruled it can't be mandatory because it might interfere with people religion and that making it mandatory is unconstitutional.
D. Hell yes. Why in the living shit would some douche bag make this mandatory? brainwashing ass-wipes.

2.A. Does political speech interfere with the public schools’ mission to educate students?

2.B. NO. We get educated about mostly bullshit in books printed over 30 years ago so no way in hell is that disrupted and if it was then good cause we need updated shit.

2.C. The court ruled that no it can't disrupt school.

2.D. I agree. It didn't hurt anyone. Nothing was wrong with it, and if I say some political shit, its none of the schools, teachers, or the students god damn business. I WAS GIVEN A MOUTH AN I CAN GIVE A POLITICAL SPEECH ABOUT WHA EVER THE SHIT I PLEASE!!

Ms. Sharer

06/03/2013 6:09am

You make a lot of broad statements without giving evidence from specific court cases. What is "brainwashing?" Who does the "brainwashing?" How should students participate in political speech? Is anything potentially disruptive? offensive? Does it matter to you?

Justin Sanchez

06/04/2013 4:17pm

Brainwashing, is when you manipulate something with a brain, into believing, or acting our certain things. The people trying to do the brainwashing are the government, schools, and any organization/ political group with power. In Minersville v. Gobitis the supreme court ruled that mandatory flag pledges were unconstitutional. We say the pledge to "pledge our allegiance to the flag" and therefore our nation. Get that idea into children's heads and they believe they owe their country something or may begin to think our nation is unbeatable (which it is). That's probably why we get so many soldiers.
I think if students are gonna protest then they have to protest about something meaningful and inoffensive. Like the Tinker kids. They protested silently, and they didn't hurt or offend anyone. That's how it should be done. It can be verbal but it can't offend someone.
Yeah a lot of things are potentially disruptive. Like me as a person. Being racist, sexist, and rude is also disruptive (not saying I am those things) but you get the picture. Yeah it matters to me. I can't stand people who are intolerant of others and what they believe of about their sexual orientation. Who says their wrong? Its their choice to think and do those things so leave them the hell alone!

ciani upchurch

06/02/2013 3:36pm

1A.Should students in public schools be forced to say the pledge of allegiance?

1B. Before the class deliberation I said No students should not be forced to say the pledge because it goes against their beliefs and the first and fourteen amendments.

1C.In the Millersville School District v. Gobitis case.The Supreme Court broaden the student rights. They ruled that there should not be mandatory of saying pledge of allegiance.

1D.I agree with this ruling because it protected the children first and fourteenth amendment

2A.Should a school’s administration determine what is in a student created school publication?

2B. Before the class deliberation I said that a school administration should not determine what a student put in the schools publication. But as the class talk about this issue I changed my point of view because some things are not meant to be in a publication like gossip, sexual pictures and innuendos.

2C. In the Hazelwood school district v. Kuhlmeier the court ruled in favor of the school saying that public schools do not have to allow student speech of it is inconsistent with the school's educational mission.

2D. I agree with this ruling if the publication prevents people from getting their education then it should not be in the newspaper.

Ms. Sharer

06/03/2013 6:18am

How would including "gossip, sexual pictures and innuendos" prevent someone from "getting their education? In the Hazelwood case, the topics (divorce, teen pregnancy) were questioned by the administration. Do you believe there are topics or issues which are inappropriate for a school newspaper?

How does not requiring a student to say the Pledge of Allegiance protect their 1st and 14th amendment rights? Supreme Court rulings over the past 30 years have decreased students' rights. Which first amendment rights should students maintain?

ciani upchurch

06/03/2013 2:24pm

Having gossip, sexual pictures, and innuendos in a school newspapers would prevent students from getting their education because all the students would talk about during class time is talk about what they read in the schools newspaper, and the gossip make cause some students not to come to school.

I do believe that their are some topics on issues that are inappropriate for a school newspaper.

Not requiring a student to say the pledge protects that students first and fourteen amendment. The first amendment protects the right to freedom of religion and the fourteen amendment says no state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.

Students should maintain to the first amendment freedom of speech.

James

06/04/2013 11:57am

1. Should students in public schools be forced to say the pledge of allegiance?
Although I respect the American flag and the pledge, I do not think it should be mandatory to say in schools. I stand by my decision because
Minersville School District v. Gobitis
The school district decided to expell Gobitis because of his refusal to say the pledge of allegiance in spite of his protests that stating the pledge of allegiance was against his religion. In the end the decision was 8 to 1 in ruling for the school district.
I do not agree because it was unnecessary to expel him. I understand that those are the school rules however if he said that it was against his religion, I believe they should understand.

2. Should schools prohibit clothing with offense slogans or pictures?
I think schools should prohibit clothing of that nature because depending on the nature of the slogan or picture it could offend both students and teachers alike for any reason at all.
Melton v. Young
The decision made by the court was that schools will be allowed to prohibit the wearing of clothing with offensive slogans and pictures.
I agree with this decision because wearing offensive clothing only sparks unnecessary conversations and irritates everyone in the school.

Ms. Sharer

06/06/2013 2:21am

James - This is obviously very late.

We studied two court cases related to the Plege of Allegiance. Why do you think the Court changed its position in the second case? Is freedom religion more important than possibly offending others? Why or why not?

Should schools ban anything that might "irritate" or lead to "unnecessary" conversation? What if the slogan leads to "necessary" conversation?

sadiqa

06/12/2013 4:49am

so yeah basically there are things should not be worn in school because of how other students might react to it. And not requiring a student to say the pledge protects that students first and fourteen amendment. The first amendment protects the right to freedom of religion and the fourteen amendment says no state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.

Sadiqa

06/12/2013 4:41am

Should students in public schools be forced to say the pledge of allegiance?

No students should not be able to be forced to say the pledge of allegiance because you have the right to freedom of speech and that means you can say what you want or choose not to say anything at all.
Minersville School District v. Gobitis
The school district decided to expell Gobitis because he refused to say the pledge of allegiance, which is just stupid...

Should schools prohibit clothing with offense slogans or pictures?
yes schools should prohibit clothing with offensive slogans and pictures because those pictures

First Amendment / Schools

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